I’m a huge Ruth Ozeki fan too. I’m intrigued by her experience and yours. In Zen circles there are some teachers who are wary of writing (Peter Matthiessen talks about this) but there’s also an enormous and rich tradition of Zen writing.
Personally I do both, and it had never occurred to me that they were in any way at odds with each other.
That's really interesting - I will have to look up Peter Matthiessen. Ruth Ozeki talks about Zen writing too, but makes the point that a lot of it is poetry, which can I suppose be 'let go' like thoughts can - not immediately, but a lot sooner than a novel. I also wonder about the significance of the fact that poetry can be more easily be written on paper. I write exclusively on a laptop (and also spend my non-writing 9-5 working on a laptop) which makes me a bit frazzled and probably pushes me further from the sort of mental state where I feel open to meditating.
Thank you so much, Kate. This is so helpful for me. I've been diving into the Nature of Mind practices and the deeper I go, the less I can formulate ideas for my posts. I'm not saying I'm enlightened (far from it). It's more like everything becomes too translucent to articulate.
What's even funnier is that I'm both jealous and enraged by all the arist-emoting here on Substack. I want to be like all these writers, worrying about my *art* and focusing on my creative spirit. But also, I want to tell them all to get a life and stop being so obsessed with themselves. I think your article pointing to some of what I'm struggling with. Thank you.
So glad it's helpful for you, Julia! I found Ruth Ozeki's piece super helpful too because I really couldn't understand why the two practices didn't seem compatible and felt like it was just me. I love that turn of phrase 'too translucent to articulate'. The idea of seeing things as 'translucent' feels like something I aspire to, but also fear, for exactly the reasons you state. It's like the idea of non-attachment, I guess - I love it in theory, but I am also deeply attached to writing and don't like the idea of that changing, even if it were ultimately to lead to greater happiness/freedom. Maybe you are becoming less attached to writing, but it turns out that is a painful process and not some great feeling of liberation...?
I'm not only deeply attached to writing, but I'm also deeply attached to the experience of living a regular human life. What I mean is that I'm not sure I want to let go of the ups and downs of life, even if it gave me liberation. I like the texture of "suffering". I like that it gives me commonality with everyone else.
It's like what you talk about in your post:
"Meditation is about letting go of your all-consuming thoughts; writing novels is about carrying them with you for months on end, sifting through them, moulding and trimming them, and eventually pinning them to the page like butterfly specimens in a display case."
Everyone has those butterfly thoughts (although only some are skilled and lucky enough to get to pin them to a page). And I understand that the point of meditation is not to get rid of the butterflies but to be free from the constant disruption they cause. But do I want that freedom??? I'm not sure.
You know what, I have thought pretty much this exact same thing. At around the time my last meditation phase fizzled out I can remember a moment when I was having loads of really chatty thoughts, holding conversations in my head with various people, and realising...I was enjoying myself?! And it occurred to me I actually LIKE my thoughts sometimes, messy and chaotic as they are. Maybe it was because I had been clearing mental space via meditation for weeks previously that they seemed sort of novel and sparkly rather than scattered and stressful, but it did make meditation seem a bit pointless, because I wasn't sure I wanted that freedom from my thoughts anymore.
Interesting piece, Kate, since I write and meditate too. I regularly find my writing intruding on meditating, wanting to capture the idea and think about it instead of meditating. You have made me wonder how meditating affects my writing. I think a positive effect is that I can let go of things I have written when I'm editing. Just because it wrote the paragraph, worked for it, enjoyed it in the moment, doesn't mean it belongs in the essay. The practice of letting go in meditation translates to being OK with my fun but shitty first draft.
Full respect to you for sticking with the meditation and not getting tempted away by the writing! That makes a lot of sense that it would help you to let go, though - to see that even though you wrote something and gave your time to it, you don't need to remain attached to it.
Really love this! I've never got the hang of meditating - swimming or doing yoga is maybe the closest I get, like maybe my brain can slow down when my body is active. But achieving stillness in body and mind simultaneously is very difficult for me
Kate, I thoroughly enjoyed reading your piece. And has me wondering if it’s the type of meditation you’re practicing. I’m a writer and a long time meditator. My practice and teaching isn’t about stopping one’s thoughts. It’s about allowing thoughts to surface and be curious about them. I come from a Tantric yoga background and the approach is different. I find meditation helps the flow of my writing. From my experience rigidity in my meditation blocks the flow of creativity. I used to be on a meditation mission, but realized a sit down formal practice isn’t for everyone. I think there are so many ways to connect to creative energy. I’m happy you found yours. Thanks for a compelling read.
Thanks Paulette, I'm so glad you enjoyed it! I've been thinking about this a lot recently and my current conclusion is that it's less the type of meditation than the attitude to it that's the problem - namely thinking of meditation as something comparable to a novel, ie. something with an end goal that can be, in a sense, 'completed'. I think I've probably treated meditation too much as a way of working towards something in the future rather than something just for the present. I won't go into great detail because I've written a whole post on this which I'll be sharing today! Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts. X
I also feel when you’re in the flow (be it writing , painting, dancing, composing) this IS your mediation. Perhaps this is the meditation that in fact works best for you. Fully present, accepting, open and awake to whatever is moving through you. That’s it. That’s what we’re seeking. 💕 love your deep curiosity and that you wrote about it and made us all think as well.
Thank you Crystal! You're so right about creative practise being a form of meditation. My only difficulty with that idea is that I have to write on a laptop and screens feel like the opposite of meditation to me. I wish I could write by hand but it's rare that I do and I always have to switch back to a laptop at some point. Maybe this is really what I'm searching for - an analogue flow state!
Excellent 🙏🏼 David Lynch and other prolific creators credit their daily meditation practice for their work. Hmmm. Maybe it's harder for me cause my mom is a Zen nun who's meditated daily since the 1970s. She's also a Very Difficult Lady.
Haha! Very interesting to hear that. Difficult because she's a Zen nun or in spite of it? I think there's a popular conception that meditation always universally feeds in positively to creativity which is why I thought there was something wrong with me before I read Ruth Ozeki's take on it.
Nothing wrong with you!! I get grumpy Monkeypants when people say meditation is the answer to everything. It can also be a bypass, like dissociation.
Mom's a trauma survivor. And a dragon lady with a cruel streak. I believe her Zen meditation practice saved her in important ways. But it was not a magic bullet to melt her suffering, create lasting awareness or mend her relationships. Sadly.
Ah yeah that makes sense, I'm sorry to hear that and I'm glad it's helped your mother to some degree. It definitely gets billed as a magic cure-all, which I think is detrimental in lots of ways! It brings so much baggage to the whole idea of meditation, which seems very anti-meditative.
I meditate and I write, and I don't feel any conflict between them except when I'm faced with a choice between meditating and meeting a deadline. For me, meditation is a way of clearing the mental cobwebs and touching a deep well of latent creativity. Writing is where I put that creativity to practical use.
I don't know, but has it occurred to you that maybe the meditation you've been trying to do isn't the right one for you? I think meditating is meant to be something one looks forward to rather than one more obstacle to overcome.
What you describe is exactly what I feel SHOULD be happening when I try to combine the two. The fact it hasn't might be a lack of experience, I guess - the longest I've ever managed to meditate regularly is six months. I'm also wondering if you are a full time writer? I fit both things around a non-writing day job that saps a lot of energy and willpower, which probably has something to do with it. I have wondered if I've been doing the right kind of meditation, and am curious about other kinds, but I have also had some really valuable experiences when I was doing it that made me think, at the time, that I would never stop. And yet I still did.
Hi, Kate. I keep feeling I should write about this but cannot imagine why anyone would be remotely interested, but in light of your comment perhaps I'm wrong. I've been doing Transcentendal Meditation (TM) for a long time, even when I had very intensive and time-consuming full time jobs. I mainly write now, but the days just get filled up with other stuff anyway.
I'm 'supposed' to meditate twice a day, but even though when I AM able to fit that in I feel enormous benefit, being pragmatic means I have compromised by doing it only in the mornings. Sometimes I miss it, but if I miss it for several days in a row then I do notice a relative lack of energy and creativity.
When someone starts doing TM they just do 20 minutes twice a day, and it's up to them if they want to go on courses and take it further. It's not too hard to fit that in -- I've even done it on a train going into work.
Anyway, I'm not trying to sell TM, just pointing out that some kinds of meditation don't have to involve a huge deal in terms of making time and space for them. I don't know anything about Buddhist meditation so don't know if my comments are apposite. Apologies if not
I would read avidly if you wrote about it! I'm really interested in TM but have never tried it, though often wondered about it. I'm really interested in Buddhist philosophy and have a local Buddhist centre I enjoy going to so it has always felt 'cleaner' to stick with the practices they teach there. But obviously, I haven't managed to actually stick with them so maybe I should try something new...
Hi Kate. I did learn in London but anyway there are TM centres all over the place. The info is here: https://uk.tm.org/london I would recommend learning from an official TM teacher, not anyone who purports to reach TM independently.
A thought provoking subject. I'm an artist but I'm here learning to write. I've struggled with meditation on and off for the last 8 years or so. But, I've never given it enough concerted effort. My mind wanders far too easily and I'm not disciplined enough.
I was wondering, do you think it could also be that they are both forms of flow? But as you say, opposite. One mindful and one unfocused. I wonder if that's like the trouble I have from going from writing to painting intuitively. One mindful one out of focus? It's really got me thinking because it's been tough getting in the studio lately.
I don't know if I would consider meditation a flow state because (in my experience anyway) your mind always wants to wander and it's a constant process of bringing it back to what you're focusing on...whereas in a flow state you're completely absorbed without having to try so hard. But I think if you meditate regularly it probably aids your concentration and perhaps makes it easier to get into a flow state to begin with? I can see why writing and painting would be difficult to switch between though, because writing is all about pinning things down and articulating them but maybe in painting there's more room for just being intuitive and allowing your work to sit somewhere beyond words without needing to be explained? And maybe if you try too hard to articulate it, that could be detrimental? (I am speaking as someone who has zero experience of painting so I might be barking up completely the wrong tree!!)
Hi Kate, no you're not! I have been giving this a lot of thought since reading your article and have written something I'm going to publish tomorrow. I think perhaps it's a bit of both? I've realised I write to connect to self and when I don't do that I can loose my way. But I think you definitely struck on something when you ask if it might hamper that flow, Inuitive state. I will ponder some more! Thank you for a fascinating discussion. This is what I came to Substack for and I am grateful to be finding it here.
Hi Kate thank you! I mention your article in my piece and quote your beautiful words you said to me above. I wanted to check it is ok with you before I publish tomorrow morning?
'....maybe in painting there's more room for just being intuitive and allowing your work to sit somewhere beyond words without needing to be explained?'
Oh that's great Kate thank you! It's scheduled for 7.15 tomorrow morning. I've tagged you (if that's what you say on SS?) so I guess it will show you? I'm sorry I'm not sure how it works 😊
Like someone else here in the comments, I to am more of an active meditation person. So the rhythm of a solitary walk, or digging the garden, or reading.
I used to have a garden and found it SUPER meditative. Then I moved to a flat with no outside space at all, and now I have a balcony, which is better than nothing, but still not quite the same as having actual soil. Maybe this is the answer - I need to get back into gardening...
Love this, I'm a huge fan of meditation but I, like you, go through waves of commitment. Letting go might be a way to take the pressure off of becoming a regular, but what about surrendering? It sounds more empowering (to me anyway)
Thanks for this.
I’m a huge Ruth Ozeki fan too. I’m intrigued by her experience and yours. In Zen circles there are some teachers who are wary of writing (Peter Matthiessen talks about this) but there’s also an enormous and rich tradition of Zen writing.
Personally I do both, and it had never occurred to me that they were in any way at odds with each other.
That's really interesting - I will have to look up Peter Matthiessen. Ruth Ozeki talks about Zen writing too, but makes the point that a lot of it is poetry, which can I suppose be 'let go' like thoughts can - not immediately, but a lot sooner than a novel. I also wonder about the significance of the fact that poetry can be more easily be written on paper. I write exclusively on a laptop (and also spend my non-writing 9-5 working on a laptop) which makes me a bit frazzled and probably pushes me further from the sort of mental state where I feel open to meditating.
My favorite Peter Matthiessen book is The Snow Leopard which is a Buddhist-inflected memoir of his travels in the Himalayas.
I will check it out!
Thank you so much, Kate. This is so helpful for me. I've been diving into the Nature of Mind practices and the deeper I go, the less I can formulate ideas for my posts. I'm not saying I'm enlightened (far from it). It's more like everything becomes too translucent to articulate.
What's even funnier is that I'm both jealous and enraged by all the arist-emoting here on Substack. I want to be like all these writers, worrying about my *art* and focusing on my creative spirit. But also, I want to tell them all to get a life and stop being so obsessed with themselves. I think your article pointing to some of what I'm struggling with. Thank you.
So glad it's helpful for you, Julia! I found Ruth Ozeki's piece super helpful too because I really couldn't understand why the two practices didn't seem compatible and felt like it was just me. I love that turn of phrase 'too translucent to articulate'. The idea of seeing things as 'translucent' feels like something I aspire to, but also fear, for exactly the reasons you state. It's like the idea of non-attachment, I guess - I love it in theory, but I am also deeply attached to writing and don't like the idea of that changing, even if it were ultimately to lead to greater happiness/freedom. Maybe you are becoming less attached to writing, but it turns out that is a painful process and not some great feeling of liberation...?
I'm not only deeply attached to writing, but I'm also deeply attached to the experience of living a regular human life. What I mean is that I'm not sure I want to let go of the ups and downs of life, even if it gave me liberation. I like the texture of "suffering". I like that it gives me commonality with everyone else.
It's like what you talk about in your post:
"Meditation is about letting go of your all-consuming thoughts; writing novels is about carrying them with you for months on end, sifting through them, moulding and trimming them, and eventually pinning them to the page like butterfly specimens in a display case."
Everyone has those butterfly thoughts (although only some are skilled and lucky enough to get to pin them to a page). And I understand that the point of meditation is not to get rid of the butterflies but to be free from the constant disruption they cause. But do I want that freedom??? I'm not sure.
You know what, I have thought pretty much this exact same thing. At around the time my last meditation phase fizzled out I can remember a moment when I was having loads of really chatty thoughts, holding conversations in my head with various people, and realising...I was enjoying myself?! And it occurred to me I actually LIKE my thoughts sometimes, messy and chaotic as they are. Maybe it was because I had been clearing mental space via meditation for weeks previously that they seemed sort of novel and sparkly rather than scattered and stressful, but it did make meditation seem a bit pointless, because I wasn't sure I wanted that freedom from my thoughts anymore.
Exactly! I totally agree.
Interesting piece, Kate, since I write and meditate too. I regularly find my writing intruding on meditating, wanting to capture the idea and think about it instead of meditating. You have made me wonder how meditating affects my writing. I think a positive effect is that I can let go of things I have written when I'm editing. Just because it wrote the paragraph, worked for it, enjoyed it in the moment, doesn't mean it belongs in the essay. The practice of letting go in meditation translates to being OK with my fun but shitty first draft.
Full respect to you for sticking with the meditation and not getting tempted away by the writing! That makes a lot of sense that it would help you to let go, though - to see that even though you wrote something and gave your time to it, you don't need to remain attached to it.
Really love this! I've never got the hang of meditating - swimming or doing yoga is maybe the closest I get, like maybe my brain can slow down when my body is active. But achieving stillness in body and mind simultaneously is very difficult for me
Kate, I thoroughly enjoyed reading your piece. And has me wondering if it’s the type of meditation you’re practicing. I’m a writer and a long time meditator. My practice and teaching isn’t about stopping one’s thoughts. It’s about allowing thoughts to surface and be curious about them. I come from a Tantric yoga background and the approach is different. I find meditation helps the flow of my writing. From my experience rigidity in my meditation blocks the flow of creativity. I used to be on a meditation mission, but realized a sit down formal practice isn’t for everyone. I think there are so many ways to connect to creative energy. I’m happy you found yours. Thanks for a compelling read.
Thanks Paulette, I'm so glad you enjoyed it! I've been thinking about this a lot recently and my current conclusion is that it's less the type of meditation than the attitude to it that's the problem - namely thinking of meditation as something comparable to a novel, ie. something with an end goal that can be, in a sense, 'completed'. I think I've probably treated meditation too much as a way of working towards something in the future rather than something just for the present. I won't go into great detail because I've written a whole post on this which I'll be sharing today! Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts. X
Wonderful. Love the insight and clarity you've received.
I also feel when you’re in the flow (be it writing , painting, dancing, composing) this IS your mediation. Perhaps this is the meditation that in fact works best for you. Fully present, accepting, open and awake to whatever is moving through you. That’s it. That’s what we’re seeking. 💕 love your deep curiosity and that you wrote about it and made us all think as well.
Thank you Crystal! You're so right about creative practise being a form of meditation. My only difficulty with that idea is that I have to write on a laptop and screens feel like the opposite of meditation to me. I wish I could write by hand but it's rare that I do and I always have to switch back to a laptop at some point. Maybe this is really what I'm searching for - an analogue flow state!
Such an interesting discovery !
Excellent 🙏🏼 David Lynch and other prolific creators credit their daily meditation practice for their work. Hmmm. Maybe it's harder for me cause my mom is a Zen nun who's meditated daily since the 1970s. She's also a Very Difficult Lady.
Haha! Very interesting to hear that. Difficult because she's a Zen nun or in spite of it? I think there's a popular conception that meditation always universally feeds in positively to creativity which is why I thought there was something wrong with me before I read Ruth Ozeki's take on it.
Nothing wrong with you!! I get grumpy Monkeypants when people say meditation is the answer to everything. It can also be a bypass, like dissociation.
Mom's a trauma survivor. And a dragon lady with a cruel streak. I believe her Zen meditation practice saved her in important ways. But it was not a magic bullet to melt her suffering, create lasting awareness or mend her relationships. Sadly.
Ah yeah that makes sense, I'm sorry to hear that and I'm glad it's helped your mother to some degree. It definitely gets billed as a magic cure-all, which I think is detrimental in lots of ways! It brings so much baggage to the whole idea of meditation, which seems very anti-meditative.
Agreed!
I meditate and I write, and I don't feel any conflict between them except when I'm faced with a choice between meditating and meeting a deadline. For me, meditation is a way of clearing the mental cobwebs and touching a deep well of latent creativity. Writing is where I put that creativity to practical use.
I don't know, but has it occurred to you that maybe the meditation you've been trying to do isn't the right one for you? I think meditating is meant to be something one looks forward to rather than one more obstacle to overcome.
What you describe is exactly what I feel SHOULD be happening when I try to combine the two. The fact it hasn't might be a lack of experience, I guess - the longest I've ever managed to meditate regularly is six months. I'm also wondering if you are a full time writer? I fit both things around a non-writing day job that saps a lot of energy and willpower, which probably has something to do with it. I have wondered if I've been doing the right kind of meditation, and am curious about other kinds, but I have also had some really valuable experiences when I was doing it that made me think, at the time, that I would never stop. And yet I still did.
Hi, Kate. I keep feeling I should write about this but cannot imagine why anyone would be remotely interested, but in light of your comment perhaps I'm wrong. I've been doing Transcentendal Meditation (TM) for a long time, even when I had very intensive and time-consuming full time jobs. I mainly write now, but the days just get filled up with other stuff anyway.
I'm 'supposed' to meditate twice a day, but even though when I AM able to fit that in I feel enormous benefit, being pragmatic means I have compromised by doing it only in the mornings. Sometimes I miss it, but if I miss it for several days in a row then I do notice a relative lack of energy and creativity.
When someone starts doing TM they just do 20 minutes twice a day, and it's up to them if they want to go on courses and take it further. It's not too hard to fit that in -- I've even done it on a train going into work.
Anyway, I'm not trying to sell TM, just pointing out that some kinds of meditation don't have to involve a huge deal in terms of making time and space for them. I don't know anything about Buddhist meditation so don't know if my comments are apposite. Apologies if not
I would read avidly if you wrote about it! I'm really interested in TM but have never tried it, though often wondered about it. I'm really interested in Buddhist philosophy and have a local Buddhist centre I enjoy going to so it has always felt 'cleaner' to stick with the practices they teach there. But obviously, I haven't managed to actually stick with them so maybe I should try something new...
Ps I live in London too 😂
Haha fancy that! Did you learn TM in London and/or are there other placed you would recommend for exploring it?
Hi Kate. I did learn in London but anyway there are TM centres all over the place. The info is here: https://uk.tm.org/london I would recommend learning from an official TM teacher, not anyone who purports to reach TM independently.
Thanks Kate. I'll cogitate on't. Not sure there's a conflict of philosophy, given this article:
https://www.tm.org/blog/meditation/buddhist-monks/
Maybe we should subscribe to each other to make sure we keep in touch
Ah interesting!
A thought provoking subject. I'm an artist but I'm here learning to write. I've struggled with meditation on and off for the last 8 years or so. But, I've never given it enough concerted effort. My mind wanders far too easily and I'm not disciplined enough.
I was wondering, do you think it could also be that they are both forms of flow? But as you say, opposite. One mindful and one unfocused. I wonder if that's like the trouble I have from going from writing to painting intuitively. One mindful one out of focus? It's really got me thinking because it's been tough getting in the studio lately.
I don't know if I would consider meditation a flow state because (in my experience anyway) your mind always wants to wander and it's a constant process of bringing it back to what you're focusing on...whereas in a flow state you're completely absorbed without having to try so hard. But I think if you meditate regularly it probably aids your concentration and perhaps makes it easier to get into a flow state to begin with? I can see why writing and painting would be difficult to switch between though, because writing is all about pinning things down and articulating them but maybe in painting there's more room for just being intuitive and allowing your work to sit somewhere beyond words without needing to be explained? And maybe if you try too hard to articulate it, that could be detrimental? (I am speaking as someone who has zero experience of painting so I might be barking up completely the wrong tree!!)
Hi Kate, no you're not! I have been giving this a lot of thought since reading your article and have written something I'm going to publish tomorrow. I think perhaps it's a bit of both? I've realised I write to connect to self and when I don't do that I can loose my way. But I think you definitely struck on something when you ask if it might hamper that flow, Inuitive state. I will ponder some more! Thank you for a fascinating discussion. This is what I came to Substack for and I am grateful to be finding it here.
Me too! Loving all the enriching discussions happening. I'll look forward to reading your piece!
Hi Kate thank you! I mention your article in my piece and quote your beautiful words you said to me above. I wanted to check it is ok with you before I publish tomorrow morning?
'....maybe in painting there's more room for just being intuitive and allowing your work to sit somewhere beyond words without needing to be explained?'
Oh yes of course, I'm flattered! 😊
Oh that's great Kate thank you! It's scheduled for 7.15 tomorrow morning. I've tagged you (if that's what you say on SS?) so I guess it will show you? I'm sorry I'm not sure how it works 😊
Have a great evening.
Like someone else here in the comments, I to am more of an active meditation person. So the rhythm of a solitary walk, or digging the garden, or reading.
I used to have a garden and found it SUPER meditative. Then I moved to a flat with no outside space at all, and now I have a balcony, which is better than nothing, but still not quite the same as having actual soil. Maybe this is the answer - I need to get back into gardening...
Maybe there is a local community garden that needs volunteers?
This is so interesting! And makes a whole lot of sense
Ahh so glad you think so Juliet
Love this, I'm a huge fan of meditation but I, like you, go through waves of commitment. Letting go might be a way to take the pressure off of becoming a regular, but what about surrendering? It sounds more empowering (to me anyway)